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Can We Learn from Other Christians?

by Loren Seibold

Ohio's Conference on Innovation exposes pastors and church leaders to creative ideas from the wider Christian and business world—which has been troubling to some church members

A couple of weeks ago I attended the fifth annual Innovation Conference (IC5), in Columbus, OH. I've been to four of the five conferences, and to my mind, this one was the best. Suzy Welch, wife of GE's Neutron Jack, was the main event, but I especially appreciated Michael Lindsay presentation about the faith of people in the halls of power, and Samir Selmanovic, who has a knack for refreshing familiar faith concepts by turning them upside down and inside out.

I always go away from the 1C realizing how confined the scope of my thinking. The church (this4s probably true of any group of which one is long and deeply a part) encloses us in itself such that we have a hard time seeing anything except through its portholes. The Innovation Conference jars me out of that. It is analogous to the effect that foreign travel has on one's cultural biases.

The innovator behind the 1C is Raj Attiken. president of the Ohio Conference. If you ask Raj why he's doing this, he'll point to the stagnating North American church, to the thousands of smug little congregations marinating in the certainty of their truth—even as their children leave, the patriarchs and matriarchs die off, and the communities around them (if they know Adventists exist at all) think of them as a benign little cult.

The critics' complaint seems to be that Raj has invited speakers who aren't Seventh-day Adventists, some of whose opinions and ideas may be quite different from, and in some particulars in opposition to, ours. (Because Raj anticipated that the 1C could be seen by some as threatening, he has been careful to find independent funding so no one can say he's used tithes and offerings for something they may not approve of.)

Some did make it their mission to stir up a controversy. Vance Ferrell seems always to show up in these kinds of discussions, and Pastor J. Alien Fine agitates from Looneyville, WV. Although the Ohio Conference generally seems to like its conference president, a local anti-IC (and anti-Raj) website popped up called Truth-Watch, though it doesn't name most of its contributors.

These Adventist critics get some of their ammunition against 1C speakers like Leonard Sweet and Doug Pagitt from other Christian websites, especially LighthouseTrails  Research Project, (which draws a bead on Leonard Sweet and Rick Warren, especially) and Christian Research Project.

We Adventists have some profound truths as a movement and some lovely qualities as a people. At our best, we are kind and gracious people, with strong ties and sincere hearts. The dark side of our collective personality, though, is a tendency toward paranoia. We not only fear conspiracies against our Adventist truths, we expect them, and search for them, especially among ourselves. And what we search for, we inevitably find. How often I've been reminded by a critical member that the brightest lights will go out, and that in the end, "Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls."

The critics found a big target in Leland Kaiser and his team, who keynoted IC1 and IC2. The Kaisers are Seventh-day Adventists, and cutting edge consultants to the hospital industry. "Cutting edge" is key here, because people like the Kaisers are intellectually adventurous, spewing out new ideas and metaphors without a lot of thought for where they'll land. Both the Kaisers and Leonard Sweet are at once exciting and bewildering to listen to, because they think and speak so quickly, and their thoughts range widely. One sometimes suspects that they're speaking experimentally, trying out ideas on you, suggesting things they know will make the audience uncomfortable. And they succeed.

I have this much sympathy for the critics: it is true they can find phrases in the flow of talk from people like the Kaisers and Leonard Sweet that, especially if divorced from the context, confirm the fears they were already nursing. The Kaisers will occasionally refer to some of the new-agey-sounding management ideas popular in business, leading people like Ferrell to refer to them, ludicrously, as "Adventist Spiritualists". I would be, and am, more cautious than the Kaisers are—but I'm an Adventist pastor, not a change consultant. It isn't the nature of creative, cutting edge people to be cautious, and that's why we want to hear them. They think of things we haven't—and sometimes that can get a little edgy.

Still, the critics have not been entirely honest. You'd never know from what they write that most of the 1C presenters have been solid Christians (including some Seventh-day Adventist teachers and clergy) who are simply telling us how growing churches are growing, and what the demographic trends are. You'll only hear about the most criticizable presenters, and most of their quotes are so abstracted from context as to be misleading. Much of the criticism has nothing to do with what they said at the Innovation Conference at all, but are highly questionable speculations about the speakers' other associations, based on books or articles cursorily scanned for points that can be twisted into something damning.

The assumption seems to be that because we've invited these speakers we therefore accept and endorse everything they say. That's nonsense. I've found some fantastic stuff at every 1C, some that doesn't do much for me, and some outright baloney, I've no trouble sorting it out. And in the end I get more benefit from the barrage of creativity than I am bothered by what I disagree with.

How much dare we interact with the world "out there"? In the Old Testament, God warns
about blending with the natives of the land and adopting their ways. The central figures of
the New Testament, Jesus and Paul, seem to take a more offensive stance: go out and
meet others, get in their faces, be kind to them, live with them, talk with them, and
convert them. Paul doesn't ask us to bury our heads in the sand, but to test all things and
keep what is good, and he draws kindly but somewhat condescending comparisons
between weak Christians, who can't tolerate seeing anything with which they disagree,
|and strong Christians, who can.

And what about cooperation in Christian ministry with other Christians? Jesus once told his disciples that some local competitors—complete strangers—casting out demons in His name were not enemies but allies.

In the end, though, this is probably not a disagreement we'll resolve by argument. It goes
much deeper. Some Adventists feel very vulnerable to possible error, and are deeply,
sincerely frightened by the danger it presents to them and their church. It would be nice,
!'though, if they could disagree without so much bile—it is this, not the content of their
complaints, that enervates the church even while it seems to energize them.

In anticipation of Samir Selmanovic's return to the 2009 National Innovation Conference, we re-visit his theology and philosophy  as presented to the”Conference” in 2006.  From his not so subtle disdain for the Christian religion ..to his foray into the occult;  From his native attraction to the “gods” of all religions (inclusive of atheism) and his desire for the Kingdom of God to be built upon the foundation of Inter Faith Spirituality…please consider prayerfully.

 Thought Questions:

How many straw men do you identify in this presentation?

What is the predominant view that is offered?  Pro-Christian,  Post Christian, or Anti-Christian?

For more on Semir's “Innovation” (or should we say, reckless and radical experimentation) visit: 

http://samirselmanovic.typepad.com/

Devotional:  Semir Selmanovic

Presented at National Innovation Conference,  2006

(Emphasis added)

Hello friends,  I was thinking today to share something from Paul;   … I know that many of you don’t have your Bibles here, but it’s a familiar text.  You’ve probably heard it many times.  This is Paul when he is in Athens and is addressing the philosophers…

  “For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing.   Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious;    "for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you:   "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.    "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.    "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,    "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;    "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' Acts 17:21-28;  

This is God’s Word.  Well I was gonna bring a topic today and I hope you are all feeling refreshed, and have (had) your second breakfast.  Have you had your second breakfast?  Like hobbits who come and go there for (a) second time?

I would like to pose a question that has been on their minds the, and is on our minds today.   In the first century church people were saying we are part of (a) Jewish subculture and we don’t know how to talk about Christ and or how to experience with “non-Jews”.  They were puzzled;  They were saying, we are part of this Jewish “thing”;  And now we need to bring that Jewish “thing” out and we don’t know how to talk to people about God or experience God with people who are not Jews.

Today, (the) problem of (the) 21^st century church is we are part of (a) Christian subculture and we don’t know how to talk about Christ or how to experience God with non-Christians.  We are part of this “Christian thing” and there is a gap between us and the world;  And how are we going to talk to people about Christ and how are we going to experience God with people who are non-Christians?

It’s a big dilemma;  We are…we have two worlds;  We have a world within a world.  It’s a whole subculture which is Christian;  And perhaps within that subculture there is Adventist subculture.  And within that Adventist subculture there is a liberal Adventist subculture and a conservative subculture so we don’t know how to bridge those worlds.

When I became a Christian;  When I decided to follow Christ.  It was a big family tragedy.  My father comes from Muslim background and my mom (was) from (a) Catholic (tradition);  And we grew up  in a Socialist country where we were atheists;  And we didn’t believe any of it;  And we believed every (all?) of it;  And we ate pig for Christmas and for Ramidan we would eat lamb without ever fasting for a day…you know…we did whatever we want.  We only felt we needed (a) Jewish family to add some zestfulness to our life…so we can dance together (laughter)…and when I became a Christian the roof of the house caved in.  It was a tragedy, and so they shuffled fifty relatives through my home, trying to convince me to leave this thing of faith;  And they brought me to (a) famous European Psychiatrist, you know…I spent some time with him and it didn’t help…and then (laughter) I want(ed) to baptize him (laughter)...I opened Daniel…to him and showed him what he needs to know…(laughter)… my mom was on medication because of her stress and two months of agony for all.

 This was really painful time for our family.  And as a last resort, they turned to a religious person;   They invited Imam, Mohammed to talk to me;  Perhaps to steer me to the better of two evils…to Islam instead of Christianity.  …He was a wise and kind man…he was a vegetarian like me… he would walk…he wouldn’t use transportation because he was environmentally aware…and he would walk and be a vegetarian….quite an interesting person.  So he came to our home and…  I was exhausted you know….when Mohammed entered I felt scared…what is gonna happen with this?  (He was) there… from morning 8 o’clock til 11 o clock in evening;   There (were) talks….almost like brain washing going on and I stood my ground…and when he came I felt safe in his presence.  He came in and he kindly asked my parents to leave …then he set down and he allowed me time to rest from (these) conversations.  Then he came to me…walked with his hand in mine…and sat next to me …and told me, “I am so glad you are a believer…and that was it.  There was unmistakable gladness in his voice.  You know, we stood up and we embraced each other and then he invited my parents, he called them the “red ones”…the socialists I mean…(laughter) you know he got em in…and when he left, I told them what had happened and then from then on, they called him “crazy Mohammed”…(laughter)  you know…like he sacrificed his standing in the community for me.  You know, wise men called crazy….betrayed him but you know…in order to support me.  And that’s how Mohammed blessed me.  And I don’t know if I would be a Christian today if Mohammed didn’t bless me? 

In our Re-Church conference in New York we had an event, we called it “Testimonies of Failure” where we brought people… 6 pastors who would …tell how they failed the ministry.   They would stand up, they say how they failed...but then God delivered a miracle?…but then I was blessed anyway?…..No!  Just stand up and say how miserable we are and sit down (laughter) OK?  No excuses here.  Things don’t work all ways…you know?  And so we had that event and I wanted somebody to really bless this group of people…these “losers”.., ahh to bless them..(laughter).  And so eight months before … it was Christmas time and I was preaching a sermon “The Magic of Christianity” and there was a women, her name is Sue and she was a member of a Wiccan religion…she was a witch…and she was cold outside and the doors of the church were open so she came in to warm up and to see “Magic in Christianity” in one word was irresistible to her.  So she came in and we became friends and we saw “Lord Of The Rings” movie and we talked about gods and elves and angels…and so I decided, I’m gonna invite Sue to bless these “loosers”...(laughter)  you know?  So I asked her, why don’t you come;  We have this big event on Saturday morning and you come and bless them..  (She said) “yes if I can pray to God as a mother”.  I said, Sue, I know that’s an issue…masculinity and Christianity be(ing) obsessed with masculine…you know.   But  it’s not the time to do that…it’s the time to encourage people;  (She said) Well, I’ll do it if pray to God as  “holy spirit”.  I said “wonderful”…”deal”.  So she came and with kindness in her eyes and boldness in her voice she approached the pulpit and said.  “Dear holy spirit, I’m not a Christian, but I and my little son are cared for in this church.  One day I might become a believer...these pastors are worn out in their service …and they’re doing good for people…what would the world be without them?  Please make them see how important their work is.  May they walk on so that people like me can find their way too.”

Now if you have never been blessed by a witch, you have missed a lot…(laughter)…”THANK YOU JESUS!!  There are moments in our life when the holy spirit re-starts our hearts;   And, for me this was one of those moments.  A hush fell over the crowd and her words lingered in the air like wonderful “eden scent”.  We were hoping if we just stayed quiet there would be more words like that.  We were basking in the faith, hope, and love of this pagan woman.  Interceding to our God on our behalf.  Do you have experiences like this? (Laughter)  do you ever discover “our God” in the “other”?

You see, every generation of Christians has a problem with the Christianity of the day.   Because, God places holy discontent in every generation.  And for our postmodern and post colonial generation the holy discontent is not the flaws of Christian leaders or the dysfunction of Christian institutions, as flawed and as dysfunctional as they may be.  (Because) we have realized they are broken;  But we are broken too.  So we’ll be broken and glorious together.  And as we have compassion for the organizations and leaders;  we have compassion for ourselves.  And so we realize that.   Our discontent is with Christianity itself.  Christianity has become a “Christ management system”…managing God.  People like Sue and Mohammed leave us wondering whether Christ can be more than Christianity.  Something that Christianity has to submit to and serve;  Something that supersedes Christianity in scope and depth and expression.

Let me put some questions out; 

Does grace permeate all of reality or is it something that is alive only for those who possess  the New Testament in the Christian tradition?

Is Christ an expression of what is everywhere, at all times, or has the “Christ event” emptied most of the world and time of saving grace and deposited it into our religion?

Our question is, how can we have a genuine conversation about Christ with non Christians if we believe that they can not know anything about Christ apart from us.  How can we have a conversation if we are always teachers and they are always learners?  There is no genuine conversation that way.  How can we experience God with non Christians if we believe that God withholds genuine experience of himself form everyone else but Christians?  There must be a way that people know about Christ and know about God  the way we don’t.

And therefore, we have a two way relationship with them;  A sacred relationship with people;  And without believing they have something to offer to us, there is no relationship like that.  Questions that seek to differentiate between Christ and Christianity seem less and less absurd than they used to.  And the more you read the Bible the more these questions become relevant.  New Testament talks about Kingdom of God 250 times.  Jesus never proclaimed “Christianity is arriving, join it”.  He said, Kingdom of God is here, enter it.  And there is a big difference between the two.  The ultimate invitation we have is for people to enter, not our denomination or our religion, but to enter the kingdom of God.  (amen) 

 Can Christianity be an idol?  Well the bible says that anything that is not God is a “non-god” and every “non-god” can be an idol.  Idols were items, forces or concepts with one common characteristic.  They could be manipulated by humans.  And idols were mechanisms of managing God.  And the reason why God opposed idols was that God did not want to be manipulated or managed;  Because he was sovereign.  So can Christian religion itself become an idol?  An exercise in “god-management” and therefore of “god-avoidance”?  I suppose we can say “no”.  Christianity, true Christianity cannot be an idol…true Christianity.  But there is no such a thing and there will never be pure, true Christianity…some platonic ideal of religion.